Thursday, December 8, 2011

How do You Show Reverence?

Kneeling woman with kids.I while back I think I posted about the difference between how we northerners tend to see morals (prohibitions) and how Mexicans tend to see morals (positive actions.)  (I can’t find the post now – maybe it’s just something I told someone.  If I find it, I’ll share the link.)

 

A closely related idea is how we see reverence. I recently saw a review of a movie (“The Greatest Miracle”) which attempts to depict the spiritual events which take place in the Mass.  The writer took issue with the fact that in the movie, the characters were getting up and moving around the church during mass, even approaching the sanctuary.  The movie takes place in Mexico, and I realized that this issue was actually connected to the fact in Mexico, people have a different concept of reverence.  The following are some comments I made about the review:

 

While Canadians who arrive late for Mass I think would try to sneak into the back pews unnoticed, I’ve seen Mexicans arrive very late DURING MASS and walk right up to the steps leading to the altar to genuflect and cross themselves before sitting down. (During the movie, the angel actually complains about a family that arrives late.)  They also get up and move around during Mass more readily.  I think there are two factors involved in this.  One is that Mexicans have slightly different idea of reverence; Mexicans can go to great lengths to show outward signs of reverence (crossing themselves, genuflecting, bowing, fully participating in the appropriate prayers), but not feel they are being irreverent by changing places in the church during Mass. In fact, if you just finished confession, you will always be moving to your “normal” spot, and (in my experience) this happens every Mass when 2 priests are available. … Mexican morality (and reverence) is more heavily based on active outward signs (bowing, etc.) more freely expressed, not only the prescribed time, while we Anglophones tend to focus on prohibitions (you shouldn’t get up or make noise during mass, you shouldn’t show up late, etc.) I suspect a balance of the two is necessary (I’m too new to Catholicism to say if either approach is more correct than the other), but I’ve seen enough of Canadian and Mexican culture to know that this factor is definitely related to how each culture views “reverence.”

 

The second factor of people moving around is that in Mexico Catholicism is the default religion.  In the U.S., Canada and many other places, Catholics are a minority - a large minority, but for all but 2 days of the year, the only people who show up for Mass are the more devout Catholics.  This means these devout few will be more dedicated to showing reverence and respect through silence and staying still.  In Mexico, since it’s the communal religion, anyone and everyone - devout or not, sometimes even non-Catholic - shows up for mass.  This means that you’ll have non-devout people in the Mass who may not understand or value reverence.  So why do they go then?  Because it’s the only place where you go to experience God more closely.  Some people think they have to go, even though they are not devout.  In many parts of Mexican culture, it’s almost just automatic.  It’s what you do.  So while you have some devout and reverent people who don’t feel it’s irreverent to move about, there are also plenty of non-devout Catholics who simply don’t know better or care much about reverence.

 

Closely related is that I’ve seen people in Mexico who just happen to be wandering by, or feel down on life, and stop in for a prayer - during Mass or not.  Sometimes they stay for the whole Mass, other times they leave when they finish their own prayer.  In fact, this is the whole context of the movie; it’s just that the story conveniently has the three main characters show up just as mass is beginning.  If you imagine a real culture (like Mexico) where people will tend to go to the church as a refuge in times of personal turmoil, it’s not always going to work out so “neatly” that they show up just on time for mass.

 

Just to be clear, I agree with our northern ideas about reverence.  Also it’s not that every Mass in Mexico has noisy distractions and lots of people moving around (depending on the specific community, there are churches that wouldn’t have this at all), but what I saw in the movie looked “normal” in the context of Mexico, and I think it helps us to understand why they made the movie that way.

 

So, how do you think reverence is shown most appropriately?  Silence/prohibitions?  Outward signs and visible affection? Both?  Or maybe not at all?

4 comments:

  1. I really don't know. I think silence during mass is a sign of respect for other people attending it. And punctuality has always been important for me not only for mass but for everything, something that crash with most of my Mexican friends and family as punctuality is not the main characteristic of Mexico :S.

    I know something. I used to be a "good Catholic" when I was in Mexico, meaning assistance to mass, confession, etc. Not really a good catholic in mind. But in practice. Here. I went ONCE to church and my little baby cried for 2 seconds. The priest made the point to come to me at the end and tell me "there was no crying room" in the church. Letting me know the baby was not welcome. As I didn't have anyone to leave my baby with I stop going to church.

    Second , when I asked what process I needed to do here, in US, for the baptism, they gave me a ton of rules to follow that where impossible for me then:

    - Be member of the church for at least 6 months previous to the baptism.
    - take 2 weeks lectures about baptism with the godfather present with me, and my husband
    - payment of the monthly amount assigned for church and priest of my community
    -payment of the service, the baptism, the one above was a different one.
    - hours of service as volunteer.

    Most of them were impossible, first because waiting 6 months more to do the baptism wasn't an option for me, sencond because I wasn't going to make the godfather to travel to US and stay here for the lectures missing his job and family for 2 weeks, and my husband couldn't either take that many days off or "early dismissal" from work, impossible.

    then the amount$$$ was CRAZY!. the monthly payment! OMG is CRAZY here. They think we all are millionares in this area, but not just the church .. everybody, just because is one of the areas with more rich people doesn't mean we all are.

    And the time to volunteer.. when I asked they wanted me WITH OUT kids.. and where would I leave the kids then?.

    So I never went back. I don't like how Catholicism is HERE in US. they seem to be all about money and I hate that. I don't completely agree with how is in Mexico but at least I felt it was more about my soul than my wallet :(


    and of course this is only My personal experience.

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  2. I can't say I've had an experience like yours, but I sympathize with your preference, since it's in Mexico where Catholicism really became meaningful in an active sense to me. Both my sons were baptized in Mexico, and as you know, it was much easier. They had the classes, but no volunteer time and the payment was really little. But on the other hand, I received confirmation in Canada when I joined the church as an adult (last year,) and I also have no complaints about that. I don't remember paying anything, and I had done all the classes in Mexico. My Catholic Church experience in Canada has been positive.

    While I believe in silence for the sake of reverence and respect, I disagree with kicking people out who have babies. I think that was inappropriate of that priest. It's good for children and for the Church to have people of ALL ages part of the service - after all, the babies and the kids are part of the Church too. While Mexico tends to be kind of noisy, they're good at including everyone. For the same reason, I don't agree with the "children's services" or "Sunday school" arrangements where kids are taken out of the mass to do different activities. They need to be part of the mass. That takes some homework on the part of the parents to teach them what is going on, but it's worth it. And of course, up to a certain age, they will make some noise. But for me that much is not only tolerable but necessary; we need new life. Anyone who says they can't concentrate on prayer because of the occasional crying of a baby is probably too full themselves to focus on God anyway. Now, in the case of a 4-year-old (my oldest son's age), I think they can learn to keep somewhat quieter during mass.

    Our 4-year-old loves church and sits attentively through the whole mass. (He even acts it out at home - he's the priest.) The baby (1 year old) cries for short times now and then. My wife and I take turns picking him up and walking back and forth off to the side where it shouldn't distract other people. So far it seems to work OK. The priests (in Mexico and Canada) have never complained, and actually seem happy that we're there with our kids.

    The parish I usually attend in Canada has a healthy number of young families with babies and kids. No one seems to mind the occasional crying of a baby. (The one in Mexico may have more children than adults!)

    Sorry to hear about your experience with American Catholicism, and I hope that, if you're still looking, you find a parish that isn't quite so "stiff."

    By the way, it's interesting that you mention that you were "a good Catholic ... in practice" but not "in mind." I think that's related to the point I was making here; in Mexico, I think being a good Christian "in practice" seems to be much more highly valued.

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  3. I think that too, about the "practice" vs mind. I'm not a bad person but I have so many doubts about the catholic church that I can't consider myself a complete catholic. I also stopped going to church after not once they send me out with my kids, but other priest send us out, my 2yo girl who was quiet the whole service, and me because that wasn't our correct parish and we NEEDED to go to the correct one near our home. -crazy right?- I mean they have so few people now, wouldn't they wonder is because all those nonsense rules? I just stopped trying.

    And then my son has therapies even on Sundays. so...

    If I had to say curiously, the people that has treated us better and have even offer a lot of services for my son and his autism and help is Jewish. Not that I'm counting or asking but that seems to be the pattern at least for the last year. They behave as I consider a good Christian should behave and as a Friend was telling me : " well, Jesus was Jewish" :).

    I'm not changing religions, I'm in the middle of re=encounter my own. But so far I still have my doubts. Still I know church and people in general doesn't define a religion, although they are the ones forming it. - I don't know If I'm making any sense...- ..

    What I had found difficult is to explain to my daughter why we celebrate certain things and no other, like Channuka vs Christmas, as she is surrounded by so many religions and my son's special education school is in a Jewish center and he comes back with Menorahs drawings etc. She started wondering. Now As I haven't introduce her to my own religion I now have troubles explaining.... my fault.

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  4. God brings his blessings in many forms, and I don't see any "complication" with what's happening for you - in fact it's wonderful that the Jewish people you know are so helpful, especially since your church community wasn't very supportive.

    I also think it's good for kids to have contact with people from other religions and see that God's love can come from them and be given to them as well.

    Our kids haven't really had contact with other religions, not because we're avoiding it, but simply because it hasn't happened. But they do interact with other groups of Christians. My 4-year-old sometimes goes to my mom's Mennonite Church when we're in Canada, and we visit friends' and relatives' churches when invited or on special occasions.

    If differences turn up in practice, we try to explain them as respectfully, objectively and clearly as possible. We know he's only 4, but we hope that he learns that there simply are differences, and we won't always do what other people do, nor will they always do what we do. We hope that builds a kind of respect, and comfort with our practices. But in the end, it's easier since it's still Christianity.

    I think I know what you mean about the church and the people. The way I would say it is the church is the people (nothing more, nothing less) but those people don't always act as they should as a part of that church.

    Good luck with your re-encounter! Processes like that can be difficult sometimes, especially when you're going through other sorts of encounters at the same time. I'm in the re-encounter process myself; for me it included leaving one church, kind of being unsure and up-in-the-air about it for about 10 years, then re-encountering Christianity in a different church. My other blog was about that, but I cancelled the blog since I sometimes ended up writing about topics that were too touchy.

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